Roman
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Post by Roman on Feb 27, 2021 13:16:15 GMT -5
She is going to be attacked no matter what in this case I think. As you said. I don't want her to alter history. I love Better Than Revenge. I also love Misery Business which some discussed. I like Permanent Marker. I think it is ridiculous that to be a feminist you have to walk on eggshells and act like you never have any argument or negative feeling toward another woman. We are human. We say stupid things when we're mad or petty. It is partof the emotional experience. It is part of the reason I loved Taylor, her feelings were raw, not manufactured. 1989 felt like a manufactured album and era which is why I hated that era and why I hate most of Lover era too. I don't want her to now go back and "manufacture" all her old work to be perfect and stay in the lines. Her real fans aren't going to sit around and do that anyway. She's so big everything she does will be microscoped and scrutinized. I understand maybe adding a disclaimer of saying "this was an emotion I had at the time and moment but it doesn't represent my feelings of the situation now" or something. But it disgruntles me that now we're going to censor art in the name of being "correct". And art is supposed to be raw and emotional and uncensored. I don't like that aspect from anyone period. I don't go around telling artists I dislike musically or lyrically to not do what they do - I just choose not to listen to it. If those people feel so badly about BTR then they can do the same. No artists should be told they have to rewrite their art because a bunch of keyboard warriors got upset. I like BTR a lot. I'm pretty indifferent on what she'll do for the rerelease. I don't care either way but I think the "problem" with the song is beyond just being negative towards that one woman that is the subject of the song. It sounds like beautiful person shaming which that type of thing negatively affects women as a whole. If she no longer supports that sentiment I don't know why she'd include it. I agree with Jazzy that Taylor got on a slippery slope in the 1989 era. It was fine she decided to stay single for a while after the triple crown John, Jake and Harry. Also fine she hung out with and supported her group of girlfriends. Fair enough they adopted the "f*ck men" attitude for a while. But then she got into the silly ideology of defending others simply because they have the same gender. Sooner or later she'll figure out you can't say 3 billion people are all the same and are all good. Let alone that you can take responsibility for their actions. Better Than Revenge might not be entirely politically correct according to Taylor's current belief system. But her recent songs might not be matching her previous belief system or perhaps not even matching her future belief system. Having to rewrite songs all the time is a waste. Or even worse: if she doesn't express herself genuinely in songs anymore, she might as well stop making music. |
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Post by SydneyPaige on Feb 27, 2021 13:17:37 GMT -5
I would like to add a suggestion for the mods when organising this part of the forum - I think we will need sub-sub forums, perhaps the BM albums in one section, and Lover and so-forth in another? Like the 2006-2017 section, then 2019-, or group the re-releases together with their originals, or in a section of their own just called 'Taylor Versions' or something. I just think it will get a bit messy if there's a continuum of each release, one after another. Quoting to second this! Just seeing this, I will reorganize this as soon as I can. |
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Post by chantel on Feb 27, 2021 13:40:19 GMT -5
I like BTR a lot. I'm pretty indifferent on what she'll do for the rerelease. I don't care either way but I think the "problem" with the song is beyond just being negative towards that one woman that is the subject of the song. It sounds like beautiful person shaming which that type of thing negatively affects women as a whole. If she no longer supports that sentiment I don't know why she'd include it. I agree with Jazzy that Taylor got on a slippery slope in the 1989 era. It was fine she decided to stay single for a while after the triple crown John, Jake and Harry. Also fine she hung out with and supported her group of girlfriends. Fair enough they adopted the "f*ck men" attitude for a while. But then she got into the silly ideology of defending others simply because they have the same gender. Sooner or later she'll figure out you can't say 3 billion people are all the same and are all good. Let alone that you can take responsibility for their actions. Better Than Revenge might not be entirely politically correct according to Taylor's current belief system. But her recent songs might not be matching her previous belief system or perhaps not even matching her future belief system. Having to rewrite songs all the time is a waste. Or even worse: if she doesn't express herself genuinely in songs anymore, she might as well stop making music. I agree with you that it is silly if Taylor ever defended anyone solely because of their gender. I don't recall her ever doing that but I never really followed her life outside of music like that. Also side note, you care about Taylor's idealogies a lot and you always seem like you want her to learn a lesson that aligns to what you think. You've stated that multiple times throughout the years. Taylor recently supported something that I strongly oppose but that isn't something that I'm going to criticize Taylor over because it's not a big deal if I personally disagree with her. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 14:46:18 GMT -5
The Other Side Of The Door.. Superstar.. Hey Stephen.. Breathe.. The Way I Loved You.. Forever & Always.. Today Was A Fairytale.. the vault..  Superstar is still one of my favorite Taylor songs, she captured the fangirl experience so magically. XD Yes!!! When I first got into 5sos, I was crushing on Michael hard and that song was very relatable at the time. |
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Post by SydneyPaige on Feb 27, 2021 14:48:40 GMT -5
"beautiful person shaming" lol It’s what that Ed Sheeran song is really about lol. |
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Roman
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Post by Roman on Feb 27, 2021 15:26:23 GMT -5
I agree with Jazzy that Taylor got on a slippery slope in the 1989 era. It was fine she decided to stay single for a while after the triple crown John, Jake and Harry. Also fine she hung out with and supported her group of girlfriends. Fair enough they adopted the "f*ck men" attitude for a while. But then she got into the silly ideology of defending others simply because they have the same gender. Sooner or later she'll figure out you can't say 3 billion people are all the same and are all good. Let alone that you can take responsibility for their actions. Better Than Revenge might not be entirely politically correct according to Taylor's current belief system. But her recent songs might not be matching her previous belief system or perhaps not even matching her future belief system. Having to rewrite songs all the time is a waste. Or even worse: if she doesn't express herself genuinely in songs anymore, she might as well stop making music. I agree with you that it is silly if Taylor ever defended anyone solely because of their gender. I don't recall her ever doing that but I never really followed her life outside of music like that. Also side note, you care about Taylor's idealogies a lot and you always seem like you want her to learn a lesson that aligns to what you think. You've stated that multiple times throughout the years. Taylor recently supported something that I strongly oppose but that isn't something that I'm going to criticize Taylor over because it's not a big deal if I personally disagree with her. It’s not about Taylor specifically. It’s more that Taylor also started following these ideologies. It’s has nothing to do with my opinions or preferences. I don’t expect Taylor or anyone else to copy mine. It’s about the bigger picture. It’s about facts and logic. In recent times the stream of identity politics is growing. These things matter heavily because they can have terrible consequences. That’s why I used the example of Taylor and her friends. Supporting a few individuals led to getting on board with the doctrine of sticking up for an entire gender. To be able to do that you automatically create an (imaginary) enemy: the other gender. Making a point in that “war” will fuel hate. That hate will affect anyone who’s not on “your team”. You might say that’s an exaggeration. But it happens faster than you think. Look at how Taylor threw her own father under the bus in the documentary. Or look at how easily all men suddenly were labeled as abusers, predators, rapists. Even on this forum there are plenty who are gratefully buying into these concepts. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 15:28:57 GMT -5
Maybe she won’t even change the line to please others but to make herself feel better. I’m honestly not sure if I can say this and if it gets deleted, I’ll understand, but we all know Taylor has been shamed like that for many years. All because she wanted to date...like??? We know it’s hurt her and I don’t think she wants to hurt someone like that. It will be interesting to see what happens with the song, if anything, when it’s Speak Now’s turn. If she chooses to keep the original line, I think Jazzy’s idea of putting a disclaimer would be a good one.
Honestly, I don’t know how I would feel myself if it’s changed. It would be weird to hear a different line after all these years of hearing “she’s better known for the things that she does on the mattress” but coming from a very reserved and prudish person, it’s time to stop shaming people (especially women) for what they do behind closed doors. Just because someone likes to have fun often doesn’t mean their talents, opinions, and feelings should be disregarded. We’re all still humans at the end of the day.
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Roman
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Post by Roman on Feb 27, 2021 15:47:17 GMT -5
Maybe she won’t even change the line to please others but to make herself feel better. I’m honestly not sure if I can say this and if it gets deleted, I’ll understand, but we all know Taylor has been shamed like that for many years. All because she wanted to date...like??? We know it’s hurt her and I don’t think she wants to hurt someone like that. It will be interesting to see what happens with the song, if anything, when it’s Speak Now’s turn. If she chooses to keep the original line, I think Jazzy’s idea of putting a disclaimer would be a good one. Honestly, I don’t know how I would feel myself if it’s changed. It would be weird to hear a different line after all these years of hearing “she’s better known for the things that she does on the mattress” but coming from a very reserved and prudish person, it’s time to stop shaming people (especially women) for what they do behind closed doors. Just because someone likes to have fun often doesn’t mean their talents, opinions, and feelings should be disregarded. We’re all still humans at the end of the day. Taylor painted a picture of a girl who stole her boyfriend. Obviously that’s not going to be positive. Calling her an actress and rhyming it with mattress was not even that brutal. Just an average teenage fight. Over analyzing these lines with a different, serious perspective is foolish. Like I said: if you disect every song and cleanse it from all potentially hurtful elements, you’re left with nothing but empty words. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 16:21:50 GMT -5
Maybe she won’t even change the line to please others but to make herself feel better. I’m honestly not sure if I can say this and if it gets deleted, I’ll understand, but we all know Taylor has been shamed like that for many years. All because she wanted to date...like??? We know it’s hurt her and I don’t think she wants to hurt someone like that. It will be interesting to see what happens with the song, if anything, when it’s Speak Now’s turn. If she chooses to keep the original line, I think Jazzy’s idea of putting a disclaimer would be a good one. Honestly, I don’t know how I would feel myself if it’s changed. It would be weird to hear a different line after all these years of hearing “she’s better known for the things that she does on the mattress” but coming from a very reserved and prudish person, it’s time to stop shaming people (especially women) for what they do behind closed doors. Just because someone likes to have fun often doesn’t mean their talents, opinions, and feelings should be disregarded. We’re all still humans at the end of the day. Taylor painted a picture of a girl who stole her boyfriend. Obviously that’s not going to be positive. Calling her an actress and rhyming it with mattress was not even that brutal. Just an average teenage fight. Over analyzing these lines with a different, serious perspective is foolish. Like I said: if you disect every song and cleanse it from all potentially hurtful elements, you’re left with nothing but empty words. Disclaimer: I don’t know if she truly said this but supposedly Taylor once said (about Better Than Revenge) “I was 17 when I wrote that. That’s the age you are when you think someone can actually take your boyfriend. Then you grow up and realize no one takes someone from you if they don’t want to leave.” Because when you’re truly and honestly in love with someone, that love is only for them. Do people honestly know what love really is at that age? Seriously, I’m not one of the ones still criticizing her for that line because she has shown remorse for it. Plus, like I said, as she got older, she found out how it feels to be called a sl*t. We all did things as teenagers that were “okay” at the time. “Okay” meaning as we didn’t know better at the time. Not that they were okay or fine to do. Then we grew up and realized those actions and words are hurtful! Sadly, some people still have some growing up to do. Now, as far as it rhyming, I suppose you could argue that she only chose mattress for that reason and not to deliberately sl*t shame but tactless, disastrous, enchantress, and maybe even practice all could have been used instead. |
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Roman
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Post by Roman on Feb 27, 2021 17:06:20 GMT -5
Taylor painted a picture of a girl who stole her boyfriend. Obviously that’s not going to be positive. Calling her an actress and rhyming it with mattress was not even that brutal. Just an average teenage fight. Over analyzing these lines with a different, serious perspective is foolish. Like I said: if you disect every song and cleanse it from all potentially hurtful elements, you’re left with nothing but empty words. Disclaimer: I don’t know if she truly said this but supposedly Taylor once said (about Better Than Revenge) “I was 17 when I wrote that. That’s the age you are when you think someone can actually take your boyfriend. Then you grow up and realize no one takes someone from you if they don’t want to leave.” Because when you’re truly and honestly in love with someone, that love is only for them. Do people honestly know what love really is at that age? Seriously, I’m not one of the ones still criticizing her for that line because she has shown remorse for it. Plus, like I said, as she got older, she found out how it feels to be called a sl*t. We all did things as teenagers that were “okay” at the time. “Okay” meaning as we didn’t know better at the time. Not that they were okay or fine to do. Then we grew up and realized those actions and words are hurtful! Sadly, some people still have some growing up to do. Now, as far as it rhyming, I suppose you could argue that she only chose mattress for that reason and not to deliberately sl*t shame but tactless, disastrous, enchantress, and maybe even practice all could have been used instead. Age definitely played a role. We don’t even know how accurate the song is. I can imagine Taylor made stuff up to paint a black and white picture of her boyfriend leaving her and/or hooking up with someone else. Interesting thing about sl*tshaming is that it has become such a prominent issue because it was heavily pushed by the feminist agenda. In the crusade of putting women on a pedestal and pretending women are perfect, it’s highly inconvenient to deal with promiscuous women. The current answer is that it’s personal freedom and there should be no judgement. But that doesn’t really answer the question if it’s morally right. |
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Post by taytaytay on Feb 28, 2021 4:32:45 GMT -5
Y'all are massively oversimplifying feminism. It is not about defending women just because they're women, it's about equality for all. That means if someone is a woman and against equality, they're not a feminist and should be called out for it, same as if they're a man. Taylor herself called out Marsha Blackburn for these purposes - surely if her feminism was still just about praising women she wouldn't have done that? Feminism at its core is not about the superiority of women, but about equality for people regardless of their gender.
Anyway, the act of the matter is, if someone is promiscuous or not, as long as they're being promiscuous with consenting adults it's none of our business. Taylor shouldn't have written that line, and in hindsight she's realised that. That's cool, we all make mistakes, and it should be encouraged that we allow people to grow and change from those mistakes. There's nothing wrong with Taylor changing that lyric just because she's realised it's wrong now - she's already done it once with Picture To Burn. Ultimately we don't need to continue pushing the agenda that the woman is to blame when a guy leaves you for someone else. No one leaves unless they wanted to leave.
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Post by oliviabenson(Taylor's Version) on Feb 28, 2021 5:53:34 GMT -5
Y'all are massively oversimplifying feminism. It is not about defending women just because they're women, it's about equality for all. That means if someone is a woman and against equality, they're not a feminist and should be called out for it, same as if they're a man. Taylor herself called out Marsha Blackburn for these purposes - surely if her feminism was still just about praising women she wouldn't have done that? Feminism at its core is not about the superiority of women, but about equality for people regardless of their gender. Anyway, the act of the matter is, if someone is promiscuous or not, as long as they're being promiscuous with consenting adults it's none of our business. Taylor shouldn't have written that line, and in hindsight she's realised that. That's cool, we all make mistakes, and it should be encouraged that we allow people to grow and change from those mistakes. There's nothing wrong with Taylor changing that lyric just because she's realised it's wrong now - she's already done it once with Picture To Burn. Ultimately we don't need to continue pushing the agenda that the woman is to blame when a guy leaves you for someone else. No one leaves unless they wanted to leave. Sure feminism is about equality for all, but many woman are taking it too far and are living like "all men are bad, every woman is an angel, no matter what they do", or mean they have to not get treatened this or that, but if you look at how men treat themselves when they are just with other men, then it's exactly the same, and equality means that you get treatened the same way and not have to pick your favorites and decline everything you don't like or want. That's wrong, that are the people who upset me and tear the feminism movement down. Also someone has to tell them that not always just the man is guilty for a bad relationship or the ending, there are always two people in the story and a woman can make mistakes too that lead to ending a relationship. Too make it more precise what I wrote there, there are woman who say they are feminists and want equality,, but are annoyed when a man doesn't open a door for her or something like that, but no one opens a door for a man just because he is a man, so equality would mean that nobody will open you a door just because you are a woman. |
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Post by taytaytay on Feb 28, 2021 7:19:48 GMT -5
Y'all are massively oversimplifying feminism. It is not about defending women just because they're women, it's about equality for all. That means if someone is a woman and against equality, they're not a feminist and should be called out for it, same as if they're a man. Taylor herself called out Marsha Blackburn for these purposes - surely if her feminism was still just about praising women she wouldn't have done that? Feminism at its core is not about the superiority of women, but about equality for people regardless of their gender. Anyway, the act of the matter is, if someone is promiscuous or not, as long as they're being promiscuous with consenting adults it's none of our business. Taylor shouldn't have written that line, and in hindsight she's realised that. That's cool, we all make mistakes, and it should be encouraged that we allow people to grow and change from those mistakes. There's nothing wrong with Taylor changing that lyric just because she's realised it's wrong now - she's already done it once with Picture To Burn. Ultimately we don't need to continue pushing the agenda that the woman is to blame when a guy leaves you for someone else. No one leaves unless they wanted to leave. Sure feminism is about equality for all, but many woman are taking it too far and are living like "all men are bad, every woman is an angel, no matter what they do", or mean they have to not get treatened this or that, but if you look at how men treat themselves when they are just with other men, then it's exactly the same, and equality means that you get treatened the same way and not have to pick your favorites and decline everything you don't like or want. That's wrong, that are the people who upset me and tear the feminism movement down. Also someone has to tell them that not always just the man is guilty for a bad relationship or the ending, there are always two people in the story and a woman can make mistakes too that lead to ending a relationship. Too make it more precise what I wrote there, there are woman who say they are feminists and want equality,, but are annoyed when a man doesn't open a door for her or something like that, but no one opens a door for a man just because he is a man, so equality would mean that nobody will open you a door just because you are a woman. That's the point though! As with every social movement there are people who co-opt it for selfish reasons, but that doesn't mean that the demands of feminism aren't meaningful. I also think a big criticism of feminism is that it should mean that men can hit women like they would with other men, even in a playful manner, but I think the bigger argument is men need to start treating each other nicer anyway. Hold the door open for other men, not have this toxic masculine behaviour of laddish behaviour, things like that. Anyway, to bring this back to Taylor, I just think a lot of her feminism has progressed since she first got involved in the movement in 2015. It's clear that, especially recently, she's been educating herself more and making an effort to be more intersectional. I don't believe that will change all of her songs, even though some of them are a big NLOG, but I do think it might impact BTR. |
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Roman
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Post by Roman on Feb 28, 2021 8:25:01 GMT -5
Sure feminism is about equality for all, but many woman are taking it too far and are living like "all men are bad, every woman is an angel, no matter what they do", or mean they have to not get treatened this or that, but if you look at how men treat themselves when they are just with other men, then it's exactly the same, and equality means that you get treatened the same way and not have to pick your favorites and decline everything you don't like or want. That's wrong, that are the people who upset me and tear the feminism movement down. Also someone has to tell them that not always just the man is guilty for a bad relationship or the ending, there are always two people in the story and a woman can make mistakes too that lead to ending a relationship. Too make it more precise what I wrote there, there are woman who say they are feminists and want equality,, but are annoyed when a man doesn't open a door for her or something like that, but no one opens a door for a man just because he is a man, so equality would mean that nobody will open you a door just because you are a woman. That's the point though! As with every social movement there are people who co-opt it for selfish reasons, but that doesn't mean that the demands of feminism aren't meaningful. I also think a big criticism of feminism is that it should mean that men can hit women like they would with other men, even in a playful manner, but I think the bigger argument is men need to start treating each other nicer anyway. Hold the door open for other men, not have this toxic masculine behaviour of laddish behaviour, things like that. Anyway, to bring this back to Taylor, I just think a lot of her feminism has progressed since she first got involved in the movement in 2015. It's clear that, especially recently, she's been educating herself more and making an effort to be more intersectional. I don't believe that will change all of her songs, even though some of them are a big NLOG, but I do think it might impact BTR. I'm all for equal rights and equality of opportunity. But feminism has been going far beyond that. Over the last decade it has spiraled out of control so far that pretty much every demand is unreasonable or even discriminating. Feminism has become an aggressive doctrine to push for equality of outcome (and even more). Basically it's pushing to give women at least half of everything based on their gender. But letting them keep the privileges and positions they already have. Obviously it's very popular and attractive to young women, because who wouldn't want to get things with no effort. And it's really convenient to use your gender as an excuse to get mad at everyone and everything. Also hand in hand with the "political correctness" movement it has pushed so much irrationality and fear into society that organizations, corporations and even the educational system doesn't dare to stand up to all the unscientific nonsense anymore.
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Post by SydneyPaige on Feb 28, 2021 10:42:26 GMT -5
I’m capping the Better Than Revenge conversation here please and thank you. It has gone massively off topic and also this thread is supposed to be about Fearless (Taylor’s Version) and last time I checked Better Than Revenge was on Speak Now so....
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